Below is an English transcript of the Arabic interview.

If you would like to read the Arabic version, please click here for a PDF file.

Radio Program ‘The Youth & The Future’

An interview with Jonar Nader,
commenting about the Australian Government’s Stay Smart initiative.

Introduction:

Is the website newly established by the federal government to protect the personal computers going to be effective?

Why is no one arresting and stopping people who spread computer viruses and spam emails on the internet? Is it true that one day we will have to pay to send an email?

The Federal Government launched a website to help people by providing information on how to protect personal and small to medium size businesses’ computers from different kinds of attacks they frequently face. The website is www.staysmartonline.gov.au

But, is this website going to achieve its purpose? This is what we are going to discuss with the Thinker and Electronics Expert, Jonar Nader.

Host: Jonar, What do you think about this government initiative?

Jonar Nader: You and I always talk about how good information is. That information is power, and if you provide people with ideas and information, they will be stronger, and it will be difficult for others to scam them. But why does the government provide such information when there are many radio stations, magazines and millions of websites where such information is available. This is a basic thing, so why does the government waste time and money in doing what is already done? I don’t think the government should be giving us information we already know, or can find easily somewhere else, I want the government to do what they should do, and the best thing to be done is arresting the ones who abuse people, and putting laws in practice to punish them and to send them behind bars. Launching this website is like as if we have many criminals and thieves in the streets, and instead of the recruiting and placing police officers to stop them, we advice people not to carry cash or wear jewellery.

So why does the government spend money and time on such a matter? We need the government to do what is overdue for the last 20 years. If the case is about a minister that has nothing to do, so he orders the establishment of an information website, then I think this minister is on vacation and does not know what is going on.

Host: So you think that this website is not going to help? And actually, if you look at the advice on the website, you will see that they are more like warnings.

Jonar Nader: I have visited the website, and spent a lot of time navigating it in order to make sure that I am not missing something. I was shocked by the waste of time. I mean the internet occupies a lot of our time, the amount of spam is very large, the scam and online theft is overwhelming, viruses are everywhere, and all that we need is a strong person who can stop the those who are responsible, instead of telling us that they exist and that we need to be careful.

Host: But they are saying that the website will help protect people and personal computers, because they do not have the necessary means to protect themselves.

Jonar Nader: But what is this website that will help people to protect themselves?

Host: So what do you think is missing, and what should the government do, as long as they have all these abilities?

Jonar Nader: Everyone should do what he can, and what is within his powers and responsibilities. The government responsibility in case we got hurt is not to tell us to be careful, we need actions, and we need them to do the right thing.

We are not paying attention to what is going to happen with regards to the internet, in the past, when we use to send an email and wait for few minutes or for ten minutes, it was acceptable, and we were thankful that we are able to send a letter within the same day. However, emails are a one way communication tools, and the internet is now being used in everything, business, hospitals, and everything else. For example, the doctor can be in one city, and a patient with a critical case is in another city, and the x-ray results must reach to the doctor’s computer, and the doctor must send back his comments in no time.

In the past, the email had no data; it was only plain text, now we send videos and recordings etc… In the past, there use to be libraries, and now the electronic library that your son might have at his PC is larger than what existed in the city hall at the age of Shakespeare. The technology that got us to the moon is now at your finger tips, the PC and the mobile phone that we use now is more advanced than the computer which sent people to the moon.

I think that in five years from now, the information that you and your children will download and upload will be larger than the size of the information in all of the emails being sent and received in all of Australia. After 10 years from now, all the internet transactions that take place now in Australia, are going to be done by only 20 people. That is why if you wanted to calculate the infrastructure requirements, you will find that we are hitting a brick wall. That is why if you asked me about what the government should do, I think the government should understand what is going on in the population, technology and E-Crime rates. Because when it was ok to wait for an email to reach its destination, now it is not, now we even use the mobile as a computer, and people who download movies and music cannot wait.

Internet in these days is like electricity, the society cannot survive if the electricity keeps cutting off every five minutes, and then people will have to wait for half an hour to get it back.

Host: You mean that the government should strengthen the infrastructure?

Jonar Nader: Actually, there is an argument around this point, some say that it is not the government responsibility to strengthen the infrastructure, and I say it is. Because if we are going to wait for the corporations to do that, then we will wait forever, simply because telecommunication companies and internet provider companies do not care about consumers and all they care about is how to maximize profit. So, they will not try to expand the infrastructure, they will try to expand the customer base.

Let’s take the doctor for example; you call the clinic to book an appointment, and they give you one at 12:00, you arrive half an hour earlier to be polite, and you still wait four 2 hours before you get to see the doctor. The reason is, the doctor instructs his secretary to book a patient every five minutes, to make sure that he does not waste a single appointment in case a patient canceled or was late.

It is the same case with the internet providers, because they have clients waiting to send their emails, videos or even hospital and airport information, and the more the traffic, the happier they are, because every second counts, and now, the current infrastructure is proven very profitable.

So, what will happen in this case, they will wait for the government to take action, because the government is supposed to have long term thinking, although the reality is that in our democracy, we have no long term thinking government, we have governments who only give promises to be elected.

So what do you think would happen if the doctor’s waiting room had 100 people waiting for an hour instead of 10? Then, whoever pays more will get in first.

Host: And you think that the same thing will happen with the internet?
Jonar Nader: Yes, this is what will happen with the internet. And you can see now that there are different internet subscription packages, the more you pay, the better the subscription and the internet speed. And did you know that the line used for the download is different than the one used for the upload? For example, I might be able to download a picture in 1 minute, but it will take me 10 minutes to upload it.

So, internet providers will look for whoever pays more, even if you told them that you have a hospital, and that information you need is very important, they will simply tell you ‘Fine, then pay us more, and we will give you priority’.

On the other hand, when I send an email now, I don’t pay any charge, but it will cost me electricity bills and internet bills, however, in the future they might even charge me per email, because the infrastructure is weak, the government is not doing anything about it and the corporations does not care. So they will give priority to whoever pays more. Just like in the Australian Post, where they have the Yellow Bag, or the Express Mail that costs more, and because people were using it too much, they developed the Platinum Bag that costs even more.

The same thing happens in the airports; since I travel a lot, they tell me that the frequent flyer gets priority in the luggage handling, so what happens with the people who travel at the business hours? When obviously, most of them are business people and frequent flyer? So who will get the first priority?

Host: If we go back to the email issue, is it possible that it will start to cost money like mobile SMS?

Jonar Nader: Yes, because if you were a business man, and need a priority, then you wouldn’t mind paying for it especially that we are all used to having emails delivered the same day. In the past, when we needed to see a photo, or have a certain paper signed, the fastest way was ‘Ansett Airline’ that used to deliver the mail within one day, and used to cost around 500 dollars. Then came the fax, but the courts had a problem with signature on the faxed documents, and there were things that could not be faxed. That is why people were very happy with the emails, but things didn’t get faster and better for free, for now we have to work faster to keep up, which is something that we got used to.

There will be time when due to the increased traffic online, and the governments doing nothing about it, causing business problems, which gives the corporation the opportunity to charge more.

Host: So, is it possible that online search and browsing will be for a charge as well?

Jonar Nader: Now, when we use the internet to search for Jonar, or Ghassan, you get the results back in no time. Searching for my name or yours happens in a neutral way, meaning that there is no preference in the speed between the search for your name or mine, but if I paid the internet provider in order to have the search results for my name appear faster, then they will give priority to searches for my name over yours, and will make such results appear faster, and when you come to know about it, you wouldn’t like it, and you will tell the internet provider that you have a radio show, and that it is important for you that people will get results faster when searching for your name, or when listening to your radio station online, their answer will be ‘pay us more!’

So, there are two things here; first are the fees that will be in place against sending emails, and the other is the neutrality in receiving information. Which means that internet for the poor is going to be so slow that they will not use it, we know that because we research matters like this, and we ask people about the period they are spend on a specific website before they move from it, we found out that some of them would only wait for less than a second before moving from the webpage if it I didn’t load fast enough or didn’t catch his attention.

The same thing happens if you are listening to some break up broadcast, or video, in this case you will not spend a long time with it.

In the past there use to be the Sydney Bridge alone, and people got so excited when the government opened the tunnel, because it will reduce the traffic jams. However, everyone was used to pay on the bridge only one going from north to south, while with the tunnel we are paying on both directions, and I think we will be paying the same on the bridge soon.

It is the same with the internet, the corporation will take advantage of any opportunity to make you pay, because they know we need the internet, and we will pay to use it if we had to, and not because the infrastructure is weak, or because the corporations who is happy with the traffic that is making them richer without having to worry about solving any problem.

Host: So, Stay Smart Online is only an advice providing website and nothing else. This particular government said that they are going to strengthen the Broad Band. Do you think this would help?
Jonar Nader: This is a very good talk. But it is like saying ‘Elect us, and you will have better education’, or better health care. This means nothing, because it is only election talk. When they say we are going to spend more on education, ask them what does that mean for my son? So when they say something like strengthening the Broad Band, it is like someone is putting his hand on your face stopping you from breathing and is telling you ‘elect me, and I will let you breath for a second’

The Broad Band is a line, and what they mean is that they are going to enlarge this line, just like adding lanes to a street.

Host: But it is part of the infrastructure.

Jonar Nader: Yes, but you have to do the right thing from the first time. If there was a bad traffic jam, and you add a lane to the street, what benefit will you get if you will face the jam when you enter the city if you have not solve the bottle neck.

That is why we cannot say that enlarging the Broad Band without being fully aware of the traffic online. And we have to ask what the benefit is for our kids? Is it only a split second extra speed?

Host: Thank you for your time Jonar.

Jonar Nader: Thank you Ghassan.

Host: The thinker, the critic and electronics expert Jonar Nader. And with this, we end this episode of “Youth and the Future”.

Is Australia a racist country? Do the Cronulla riots expose cracks within the Australian community? Is multiculturalism working? Does it work at all? Why did the young people cause such a furore in Cronulla? Were these the sentiments of all Australians? Jonar Nader speaks with Walkley-Award winning journalist Ghassan Nakhoul about the Australian Government’s response to the crisis. This broadcast is spoken in Arabic.

Below is an English transcript of the Arabic interview.

If you would like to read the Arabic version, please click here for a PDF file.

Radio Program ‘The Youth & The Future’

An interview with Jonar Nader about the Cronulla Race Riots

‘Was the Australian Government’s response appropriate?’

Introduction:

We have spoken to him many times about matters taking place in our Australian arena, for he is keeping up closely on these matters, especially through his lectures that address all areas; starting from business, to intelligence, management, terrorism, consumer affairs and youth matters.

He is the author ‘Jonar Nader’ that have provided young people with workshops about the art of leadership. What does ‘Jonar Nader’ say about the latest events of racial violence?

Jonar Nader: I don’t know what is new in these events? Why are people surprised? Don’t you think that such events take place every day? Especially at schools and among younger people!

So if you had a fight with 1 person, it is called an argument, but if 50 people had a fight with one person, it is called a feud, and if 1000 people had a fight with one person, it is a war, but if that person was hurt, it would not matter to him what it is called. But if you ask me why this did happen? It is like you are telling me you do not know that this is happening every day. Meaning you do not know that crime, bullying, misunderstanding, racism, stupidity or politics are happening every day. And if you wanted to confuse the subject by asking why it does happen on a high level? That means you don’t know it is happening on a smaller level.

We are not seeing a new thing in essence, but we are seeing a new thing in the reaction. And while I see the public happy with the reaction, I am not. Because the public thinks it is like a person with authority has stopped a fight, when you did not actually clean the subject.

And after all that has happened, the government comes and makes a statement that it is going to dedicate a 400, 000 dollars for an education program for the Arab Youth –as if they were all stupid- to educate them about the ‘Life on the beach’. It is as if a fight took place in a restaurant, you go and you dedicate an educational program to teach people the etiquette!

This kind of act shows the kind of mentality that depends upon force, because if you place a lot of police members in what is called a ‘Brut Force’. And then you spend money on that, I think it is a stupid and a manual solving of the problem.
Host: Yes, but the presence of police prevented new events; they have arrested some people, and stopped vehicles. Although this might have negatively affected business in that area, but in return they have controlled the situation.

Jonar Nader: True, but unfortunately this was a political move, if the police was a back bone for the government to solve problems, and I don’t mean the commissioner or the police management by what I am saying, because they are only executing orders. But if the government had a view of how to solve the problem they should have announced it, and they should have said they are going to place 5000 police members, and if then say that if you dare to show up we will beat you all, instead of saying we are having a beach lock down.

Host: And that is what they have done actually!

Jonar Nader: If for example, there was a fight between a brother and a sister, and the father asked them each go to his or her room, then what did he solve? And it is like the doctor that would give a patient a pill to stop the headache, when actually he did not stop the reason of the headache, but only temporary stopped the pain.

Host: You have written a letter to the officials about what has happened, what did you say in it?

Jonar Nader: First, I told them about my desire to assist them, because they may not have the time to understand the situation, and I have told them that the officials who are making decisions may not have complete awareness of the matter, or that they may not know the story well, and that I want to help them. However, I did not make a complaint, because I don’t see any benefit of telling them something like this person is right or wrong? I have requested that we sit and talk about the matter to reach a way to make the officials more aware of the situation so they can make better decisions. And I have also told them that I didn’t hear any proper statement from anyone at any side so far, meaning that there is wrong information, ignorance and racism.

You know, I think if someone had the time to bring together 50 media professionals, to monitor the media and the statements that were said or written, we will be able to make a book of one line, called ‘Stupid Statements’. That is why I think we should lock down radio stations if we are talking about a ‘Beach lock down’ And I think we should have a law not to allow anyone to talk or make statements unless they know what they are talking about. So, people who are talking on radio stations saying ‘This is an inbred culture’ and that ‘they have law IQ’ or to say that Lebanese like to fight because this is their culture, or they don’t have respect for women. Who is saying such things? This kind of talk must be stopped, just like I would be stopped if I went to the radio station and said that a certain person did so and so, in that case the matter will be referred to the legal department in the radio station to decide whether to broadcast or not.

So, when talking about a certain person, it is unacceptable, and must be referred to the legal consultation, but to talk about entire culture using wrong information, it is ok and is broadcasted everyday! So, why isn’t that considered a legal risk? I think I am going to try to do something from the legal side, because this matter requires some smart legal action, and the thing I am going to try the most is to work on the removal of the term ‘Middle Eastern Appearance’

Host: Exactly, because what is a “Middle Eastern Appearance”, it is a very broad description.

Jonar Nader: And not only this description, because you either have a multicultural society or you don’t. And I have told you in the past that I do not agree on the term ‘Multicultural Society’ if the result is for one culture to try to change the other. I think everyone is welcomed, and are free to do whatever they want as long as they do it without affecting others. So, if you want to wear red pants for example, do it, but do not tell me that I will be punished if I did not wear red pants. So do what you want to do, but do not try to change others and do not try to force others to do what you want to do. And here is the problem with multicultural. I would like to say that there are many cultures which act in that way, where you can see the father or the mother forcing their children to live in the same way and style that they lived in, which means that this kind of culture is within this family. However, the issue here is not what you do or what your religion is, because if you are going to start categorizing people based on their ethnic roots, or ask people things like ‘where did you come from?’ or make a statement on the radio station that a person from ‘Asian roots’ for example stolen a bank, then you do not have a multicultural society.
However, I would like to ask from a technical and not a racial prospective, why do they use terms such as ‘Asian roots’ or ‘Middle Eastern Appearance’?

Host: I remember that someone once asked a police official about the reason behind using such terms, and he said that the reason is for people to be able to help if they saw someone with these descriptions. But, when they say ‘Middle Eastern’ I don’t know how anyone can help!

Jonar Nader: So if I described someone as ‘Asian’ or as ‘Middle Eastern’ then I would help in any way? If for example you saw a car that is made of gold and jewelries, and someone came to you and said that a car made of gold and jewelries was involved in a bank robbery, in this case, you can help identifying the car. But if they told you a red car was involved in a bank robbery, you will not be able to help at all, and it is all just useless talk. Just like in the weather forecast when they say ‘the wind is going to be north to north east’, what would I benefit from this information? Isn’t it enough for me to know that it is coming from the east? Do I need to know that it is coming from the north east? Or when they say that the ‘Parametric Pressure is 12/24 and raising’. If people would really pay attention to the way the weather forecast is being said, and if we will benefit from such information or not, aside from whether it is going to rain or not! So, who is going to be able to help the police when they say there is someone with a ‘Middle Eastern Appearance’ or ‘Asian Appearance’? This is just useless talk, just like when they tell you the time every 5 minutes on the radio station! Maybe this was useful in the past, when there use to be only one clock in the city square, and people where dazzled about it, but now there is a clock on almost everything, the pen, the microwave, the fridge, the mobile phone and many other things, but they still till you the time every 5 minutes. So why is this useless kind of talk? However, I am still wondering about the technical reason behind using a descriptive term of that kind, because I am not convinced that the reason is to help the police, because how can I help when you tell me something like ‘Middle Eastern Appearance’? Am I going to sit down and wait for someone with a Middle Eastern appearance?! I think what they mean by this is that there is segregation in this country. And then some important media man comes and says ‘Yes, in certain cases we have to specify that this is a Lebanese gang’. But who is that lawyer that would approve on such statement, the lawyer should understand the concept of innocence before we say ‘Guilty’

You have asked me of what I am doing with the leaders, first I would like to try making a legal case to remove the term ‘Middle Eastern Appearance’ from the media and police reports. Until now any of us can talk for ages about what has happened without any benefit, because the constructive thing is to have the support of the law. The second thing we have to do is changing the law about alcohol consumption in public areas. If we have found out, and after many years, and many lost souls, that one should not drink and drive, and then came up with the 0.5 alcohol law? So why can’t we have a limit also for people walking in public areas? Because when you tell me that thousands of people came to the beach and got involved in a fight when the fact is only 4 or 5 started the fight, meaning that the entire problem started with minority, and all wars and problems in the world starts with minority, and all corporate corruption start with a minority of people. We have spoken about how only 6 people brought ‘Enron’ down, and how only 8 people brought ‘WorldCom’ down, which means that you only need a small minority to start all that. And there are many people annoyed by drunken people walking in the streets, so why there isn’t a law that would specify the allowed percentage of alcohol in the blood of the people walking in the streets? Why should the society have to deal with any drunken person walking? If you were living in the jungle, and there was a drunken man walking, he would walk around, talk to a kangaroo, and then fall down and sleep under a tree, but in the city, this affects many people. And that is why I think we should have such a law to prevent drunken people from harassing people in the streets. If you want to get drunk, then do it in your home, and do not bother others, and you can see how many young people harass others in the streets, and you cannot expect people to call the police every time they were harassed.

Host: The Author ‘Jonar Nader’, and with this we end ‘From people’s cases’

Below is an English transcript of the Arabic interview.

If you would like to read the Arabic version, please click here for a PDF file.

Radio Program ‘The Youth & The Future’

An interview with Jonar Nader about the Australian Government’s Decision

‘A Computer for every student’

Introduction:

A computer at each school desk! Is this the best solution to the education problems? What is the point behind arming our schools with technology? Where is the benefit for the coming generations? And what about the rule of the teachers and the curricular?

The new federal government and based on one of its election pledges have approved a 1 billion dollar budget to provide schools in Australia with computers, and have called for schools to prepare a list of their technological needs, dedicating a 1 million dollar for each school.

This is what we are going to be talking about with the technological expert, the author, and the social and educational lecturer, Mr. Jonar Nader.

Host: At first, please tell us what do you think about the fact that just like there is a table and a chair for each student, there is going to be a computer?

Jonar Nader: I have always wanted people to know how important education is, and that is why it is nice to hear news about investments in education, and that we are going to help the students, and that we are going to provide the schools with better equipment. So, this is a good thing, although I don’t know where exactly the solution is. If someone comes into your home and told you that he is going to place a machine into your home, you will ask him ‘what for?’ the machine looks nice, but what does it do? And that is why I don’t like that talk that ‘Sounds Good’. I always hear in the corporate and government life things like ‘we want to help the employees’ and ‘we want to make better decisions’, and all the corporation mission statements that I have read were something great. And there is something great in this government decision, that every student will have a computer, but what is the problem that we are trying to fix here?

Host: what is the problem? I think maybe because the computers are wildly depended upon in these days, and it is possible that the government thought from this prospective, so why do think this is not enough?

Jonar Nader: Will, we have to be specific about what we are talking about here; are we talking about the students who finish schools these days with no interest or enthusiasm? And who does not prefer work? Who don’t know what they are going to do with their lives? Ask a student about what he or she wants to do after they finish school, you will find that they don’t have any compassion about a specific thing, they might say things like ‘I want to be race car driver’ or ‘I want to go to the moon’, you will find them talking about big things, that is what they want, to be a rock star, a super star a movie star, that is what they will tell you if you ask them about what they want to be when they grow up, but if you ask them about what are they really going to do when they grow up? they will answer ‘I don’t know’

So, what is it that we are trying to fix by providing them with computers? Before giving them computers, we should examine the educational system that is producing students that have no trust in life or in the working force, and technology is not going to place that in their hearts.

Host: I think students these days do not lack any technology, because I think technology is with them since birth, and I don’t know if having a computer will be good or bad, and wither it will affect their skills or not?

Jonar Nader: Yes, and I have asked about this. Let’s assume that I came to your office, and told all your employees that I am going to give them new mobile phones, the reaction will be ‘That is good’ or telling them that I will give them a new car each, they will say ‘that is really good’ but will this lead to a better radio station? What have we really achieved? Of course the employees will be happy to have a new car, and the students will be happy to have a new computer, because they are not really thinking of what they are saying. I have asked students of what they think of this new computer policy, they said ‘Yeah, I think it is good’, and when I asked them why do they think so, they said ‘because when we go to the library to print an essay, we don’t have to wait anymore’ and when asked ‘don’t you all have computers at home’ they said ‘yes’, so is the computer going to improve your essays? The answer is no, so it is just more convenience, and more access, but what value did it add to education? And where is the lesson? What are we trying to put in the students’ brains and hearts? And where will the inspiration come from? I am not saying that we should not spend on education, but I prefer people determining what they want to fix or invent before they start spending.

Host: Jonar, through your almost constant meetings with students, high schools students and others, what did you find out? You ask ‘what is inspiration?’, so what do you think will give students the inspiration and the encouragement?

Jonar Nader: We call our life a 3D life, and the school is usually 2 dimensioned, I mean if I wanted to teach you about the lion or the bird or the moon, I will have to show you these things in photos, because I would have to take you to Africa to show you the lion for real and in a 3 dimensional view, but we don’t do that, we only talk about birds in black and white through papers. Life is filled with inspiration, and everything in life can be amazing, even if you looked at microscopic cells you will be amazed, but you will need someone to show that to you so it can stick in your mind, and so you can say ‘wow, this is great’ so the problem is in the educational process, and not in the technology, so we have to examine the entire education curriculum, and what exactly do we do. To begin with, we have to educate our students with analytical skills so they can tell the difference between colors, and we teach them mathematics, and we focus on building their thinking process while their young, but when they are 15 years old, we have to show them inspiring things, and not technical things. But who can give something inspiring? Only an inspired person can. So I think that the investment should first be placed in teaching the teachers, because when I walk in the school corridors, I feel very frightened when meeting the teachers, I know they will be mad at me, but they know that there are not inspired. So show me any school or any teacher that have the ability to convince a student with anything unless the teacher him/her self is convinced with, and is inspired, interested and has complete knowledge about. How will this be achieved through a computer? Let’s assume that the computer is a piano, and that we are giving each school a piano, and you were asked to teach them? What do I or you know about pianos? And how can we make the students say something like ‘wow, I want to do a great concert’ this will never happen. That is why I say that we invest in teachers and in schools and not in computers simply because it sounds trendy. And I don’t want this to be just a political statement, we all know that everything is now connected to technology, and you can’t even go to a dentist without technology, and we are all excited about how bright technology is, but what is the use of it in the hands of someone who can’t use it.

Host: Ok, aside from teaching the teachers, what is required for students?

Jonar Nader: Students are worried about work, they think it is a very boring thing, hence you have to explain to them what life is really about, because they only see life as a 3 parts circle: ‘Work, Rest, Play’ and they say that working is boring, and I hate work and don’t want it, so can I do something not to work? So they start thinking of a way not to work, and then even if they work, they will be bored, hard hearted and will be looking at the clock wondering how can they rest. After that they move from work to rest, because they are exhausted and have no more stamina, and once they are done resting, they would want to play, so it is a ‘work, rest, play’ circle, which is a vicious circle. So they plan now to find a way not to work, because they are convinced through someone that work is not fun, or entertaining. This of course will come from home, but it will also come from the school that places things in their minds like they must learn math, geography, geology, biology, etc etc, in a way that would make the student wonder about what he is learning, and wither this is life? And then they will say to their teachers ‘Ok, you are working, and I cannot imagine that you are happy in what you are doing. So, what is it that you keep telling us about? We are now 16 years old and you want us to be like you? Yelling at kids and sending them to detentions?’

In each school there is a teacher or tow that are considered good and affective, the rest are just being laughed at by students, so where is the rule model? If we want to invest, we have to focus that each teacher and school has a system that the student would look for. If you watched a student watching a TV show or looking at a magazine, you will find them amazed by Brad Bit or other celebrities, and you will find them inspired by them, and they think that their work is fun, when they don’t really know anything about the celebrities work, and they don’t know it is a very hard work, but they are impressed by it, and want to do something like it. On the other hand who looks at the 50 teachers at school and say they want to be like them?

Host: Maybe because there are celebrities and they see them only in movies, but they see the teachers in real life, when they are really tired. I am not very sure of what you want to say here Jonar, is it the question of what needs to be done to get the student inspired and interested?

Jonar Nader: what I am trying to say is that we should not make students look at life as a 3 parts circle only ‘work, rest, and play’ and that they come to school so we can teach them how to work. Because then they develop thoughts like ‘what do I want with work, when everyone around me who works is not happy’

Host: Ok, almost a week ago, one of the first decisions made by the government was to approve the 1 billion dollars budget for school to provide kids between 9 and 12 years with computers. If you had that amount of funding, what would have you done with it?

Jonar Nader: I would not spend it on computers, because computer without software is useless, and finding software that would teach students subjects like physics will be very expansive. Besides, what can a computer teach me that a teacher cant? Because the good teacher can teach you anything you want, while good computer can show you models or do a computation of some sort, or have a multimedia or show you a picture of a bird or a lion, just like a TV, but what about the curriculum itself? I can show you a multimedia system in a classroom that would astonish you, but it is not about the show, nor is it about what is impressing only, or about the ability to compute things in a fast manner, that is not what the school is about, the school is about placing subjects in the heart of the student in a way that would make him love to learn, so he can say ‘I can’t wait to get home to learn more’

If you have a toothache for 5 years, and someone gave you a number of someone who can heal it, you would run home to dial that number and find out more about this person, but what are we doing to make our students run home wanting to learn more? So we can defiantly use the 1 billion dollars to establish an entertaining system for the students, but I would want to use that amount to improve the entire system, I would use it in developing the teachers to be professionals. Let’s take the piano example again, I would want to teach the teachers how to be great pianists, and then teach them how to teach that to their students.

If you remember few weeks ago, we have spoken about driving; and wither to allow people to drive at an age younger or older than now, and I have said that if someone’s father was a good driver, that does not necessary mean that he can teach that someone to be a good driver. Having a certain skill, does not necessary mean having the ability to teach that skill.

So if you ask me how would I use the money, the first thing I would do is teaching the teachers how to be on a very high level of inspiration and full knowledge of the subject they are teaching, and then teach them how to teach these subjects to their students, because many do not know how, and I think that is more important.

And I will also study the entire curriculum, and why we are teaching students these subjects. Because putting a computer alone will not help with anything, it is like walking into someone’s house and finding it dirty and missy, and then you offer them a bigger house. If you visit these people a year later, you will not find their new house any cleaner.

So the big house will not solve the problem, nor will the computer change anything about the way I feel and think. But it ‘Dose look good’, just like giving a new car, mobile phone a computer to the staff will make them happy, but will that make a different a year from now?

Host: We know that you always have lectures at schools, so, what is new with you?

Jonar Nader: I am always happy to be invited to talk to students, and when I am told that students have thick heads and that they won’t listen and my help is needed to talk to them and try understanding what do they want. So I go and I talk to the students for an hour or so, and we have so much fun.

However, this time I asked about the problem. I told them that I want to talk to the teachers first, they agreed, and so we are having a 5 hours long session with the teachers. Then I told them that I will not be able to talk to the students or to the teachers unless I speak to the senior management team first, and they agreed, so that is another day. Then I told them that I want to talk to the board of directors before I talk to anyone, and they agreed, so I am meeting with all 9 of the board of directors in a morning session. Then I told them that since I came here, and since this is a small community, then I would like to talk to the community and that I wanted to learn about the people controlling this community. Because families alone does not shape characters.

Host: You mean that it is no longer a triangle ‘Family, School, Student’ and that it is the society as will. So we have a square now instead of a triangle.

Jonar Nader: Yes, I mean that the town and the entire community affect the way a child is raised, and that is why they agreed to all of the above, and we have been working on the arrangements for a while now. The event is going to be in March, and it is going to be a first for me to talk to everyone, so I will either inspire them or drive them crazy.

Host (Joking): They will either run away or go crazy.

Host: Thank you very much Jonar for all the interviews you do for the Arabic show for this year and wishing you a successful and productive year.

Jonar Nader: Thank you Ghassan.

Host: The Educational and social lecturer, the technological expert and the author Jonar Nader, and with this we end the youth program ‘The Youth and the future’

Below is an English transcript of the Arabic interview.

If you would like to read the Arabic version, please click here for a PDF file.

Radio Program ‘The Youth & The Future’

An interview with Jonar Nader, exploring why the age for driving ought to be lowered.

Introduction:

New drivers and car accidents, why do young people die on the roads? And where are politicians from the real solution? Is the solution really in raising up the legal driving age? And what about creating special driving schools that would allow future drivers to experience crashes, and understand car physics?

Almost no week passes without news about a horrific car accident that has killed young men or young women, and with this disturbing curve of events, the voices requesting that young men and women are not to be allowed to drive before they reach a certain age, are getting louder.

This subject is the focus of the following conversation with the author ‘Jonar Nader’ who continuously holds seminars with the youth, wither to train them about the art of driving, or to talk to them about life in general.

Host: Jonar, first what do you think about suggestions asking to rise the legal driving age in order to reduce car accidents?

Jonar Nader: I always get worried when the society or the government changes a law because the minority cannot be control themselves. For example, we know that at shopping malls, a 1000 people can go in to a supermarket, but only 2 of them would steal, so the management then places cameras to monitor the 1000 people, when the actual problem is only with the 2 who steals. Or when someone at work smokes in the office, and instead of talking to that person, punish him, help him or ask him not to smoke in the office, they place a sign so big that 5000 people can read, although they are not concerned with it. What I mean is that we always tend to punish the majority when the problem is only with a minority.

It is the same when we ask to rise up the legal driving age, so that instead of being at the age of 16 or 17, it is at the age of 20. What did we really achieve here? This is really inconvenience, we always talk on the radio about how the youth have good management skills, awareness, and how smart they are, but when we do something like that, it is like we are telling them that they don’t understand, that they can’t handle things, that we cannot trust their abilities, that they don’t have enough awareness, that they don’t have enough coordination skills, and that we will wait until they are 21 to have all that.

Host: But Jonar, the problem is that we have people dying, and the affected are not the youth alone, but the entire society.

Jonar Nader: That is true, so, we have to do the right thing, and not a political thing, because it is easy to shift, and the issue is not a political stand. I agree with you, and I know that there are people getting hurt, and that is why we have to do the appropriate thing. But to tell the young man that he have to wait until he is 21 or 25 to drive, do you think this will make a difference? I don’t think so, I think we have to make the change in the core, and in the roots.

Host: You have worked a lot with the youth, so what do you think is the reason behind this matter? Is it the fact that the young man or the young woman is just in their prime enthusiasm? Or is there something else the society does not know about?

Jonar Nader: We have to know exactly what the problem is. The problem is not that we cannot trust the boy or the girl, because there is no boy or girl who loves to hurt themselves. I was meeting with the youth once, and there was this guy who arrived a bit late, and when he drove in, he wanted to make a little show-off moves, so he drove fast and he parked fast to show us that he can make a quick parking move, but he miss-calculated the distance, and very slightly pumped a sign in front of him, causing a very small scratch on his car. And he was extremely upset about it. No one who is showing off with his car, would like to be involved in an accident, but what do they really do? The whole thing is about showing off; however, people at the age of 25, 35, or 45 would also want to show off.

Host: Of Course everyone has his/her own problem, but there are young people drinking and driving.

Jonar Nader: Drinking and driving is not related only to young people, it is a society problem, and I have always told you my personal opinion of it. But, what is the real problem that we face? In the past, we use to follow what the opera singer does. If she shows up with a red hair, we all want red hair, if she is wearing something long, we all wear something long. But now, no one watches what the opera singer does, now everyone is watching what the movie stars and the sport stars are doing. Meaning that the concept of fame is different, and that means that the concept of self esteem is different. We use to say that the young man with a diploma is a bright one, but this is no longer enough to find self esteem. So where will the self esteem come from? You will find the young man looking for what is manly, and the young women looking for what is feminine, and they are looking for a thing through which they can prove themselves to those who underestimate them, even if this proof came from an external thing. Maybe I would think that intimidating others will give me the self value that I seek, a fake value of course, or maybe if the others thought I was rich, then I will get that value. You often find the person with a black belt in karate not talking about it to anyone, when the person who cannot fight keep talking about how expert he is in the martial arts.

Host (Laughing): That is because he has nothing for real. Jonar, surely you talk about these things with the youth when you meet them.

Jonar Nader: Actually, young people do not prefer to admit that they seek love and attention, and that they seek a person to tell them ‘You are normal, and we accept you’ And that is why they seek fame, and showing off. And if you take the car away from them, they will find another way to show off; they might join a gang or a team or something. That is why the desire for fame is the first issue here, the other issue that we need to know is the law of physics, I believe that young people who get involved in car accidents do not want these accidents to happen for sure, because they definitely are afraid of accidents, and afraid of the idea of hurting themselves or others. But they do not know the car physics, and that is not limited to young people alone, even grownups do not know exactly how good their driving skills are, and if you really want to help them out, it will not be through telling them ‘wait until your 20 or 25’ instead of that, we will start preparing you for driving at the age of 13 or 15, we will provide you with the full training that would enable you to control the car. But who gives this young person this kind of experience, if the young person asked his father to train him for 100, or 300 hours, he will not benefit a thing if the person training him cannot train and the car used is not suitable.

My reaction is that people of media are not doing their job correctly, and they are not asking the politicians the right question. Politicians are aware that parents want to know they are doing something to help protect their kids, because surly no one wants his children to get hurt, or to cause harm to others. Yet no one is asking the politicians the tough question. And now you and I are wasting our time talking about this from a political angle regarding increasing the legal driving age, when it has nothing to do with age. There are 14 years old boys and girls who own companies with 500 employees making 200 million dollars. 14 years old can skate upside down on his head. They are really smart.

Host: So you think they should reduce the legal age of driving, while they are asking for the opposite.

Jonar Nader: Yes, because you have to remove the mystery. Let’s say for example that you placed a mystery around the casino by telling someone that he cannot enter the casino until he is 30 years old, the guy will then go crazy wanting to know what is behind that door. Just the same of telling the young man that you cannot drive until you are 21 years old, what we did psychologically is telling the young man ‘You will be a man when you are 21’ because he sees driving as a symbol of manhood, in the past, there were different symbols of manhood, different rituals, different parties. It was for example connected to marriage, so the young man couldn’t wait to get married to gain the respect of the family.

Host: But the aim of rising the age here is to wait until the boy or the girl is more mature.

Jonar Nader: I don’t think that is right. We know for example that smoking is a killer, so does rising smoking age to 30 would increase the awareness of the smokers? If we increase the age of gambling, would that stop people from gambling? I think we should go the other direction, I think we should remove the mystery from things. We need to remove the relation between driving and manhood. Of course people will show off in a material way, so, what I am saying is that this is a complicated matter that needs to be addressed from psychological and material aspects. There are many people who should not have driving licenses, we see many bad drivers on the streets, doing stupid things, because they are drunk, or because they are texting while driving, so no one should have a driving licenses until they attend a perfect specialized driving school.

Host: So parents should not do the training.

Jonar: Of course not, where will they get the time and experience from? I am not saying that they are stupid; I am just saying that they are not professionals. You might be the number one scientist in Australia, but you still cannot train. You can be very smart in mathematics, but that does not necessary mean that you can teach, because teaching is a profession of its own, that is why the teacher should be as professional as the engineer, yet this does not mean that the engineer can teach. So, we cannot say that because my father is a great driver, it means he can teach me, because teaching is something else. And don’t forget that there are children who are stronger than their parents. So if you gave the boy or the girl the training book, and asked him to have it signed by the trainer for 100, or 200 hours, don’t you think he they can simply have their parents sign whatever they want?

Host: So you suggest that the driving schools should teach other things aside from driving?

Jonar: Yes of course, you have to teach me about accidents. If you want me to be a good soldier, you have to teach me how to kill, otherwise I will not be a strong solider. You see, here is the contradictory world that we live in. People think that the books I write are funny, in “How to lose friends” for example they think I am telling them something funny. But if you spend your entire life being told how to make friends, you will need someone to tell you how to lose them, if you spend your life being told that you have to be patient, someone must teach you when to step up and fight. If through all your life you have been learning how to be honest, and no one taught you what the liar is like, how would you know him? If everyone at your company is honest, how would you be able to see thieves and cheaters if you didn’t know what they are? So, I don’t want you to steal, but I want you to know how and what is a thief. So, if you are going to teach me safety, you have to teach me what is the unsafe path, the father cannot teach me the unsafe path. So, just like we have a place for shopping and a place for sport, we should have a place to train people how to drive, a special person to train, and a special car to use. There are places to teach professional driving, but they are commercial, while we need these places to be social and constructive, we need the student in these schools to be able to know what the water and oil on the road means, and to learn about the fact that I think I am invincible, because we all think that we are invincible. If you told me many times “Don’t Smoke” I will not listen to you, I mean look at the degusting photos they place on the cigarette box, do you think these pictures are stronger than the addiction? You are trying to get to my conscience so that I would say to myself ‘I don’t want to die’ or ‘I don’t want to lose my foot’ or ‘ I don’t want to have cancer’ Of course no one wants to have cancer, but after a little time, the body will speak a different language, will ask me for nicotine, and if I didn’t respond, it will take the control from me.

Host: But if there was a place dedicated for training, it will not be like the driving on the real road which is more realistic.

Jonar: That is true, but first, I need the driver to build a relation with the car and with the physics, because many people don’t know physics. People, who go into casinos for example, don’t know anything about the laws of probability in math. I think if you want to teach people about how stupid they are to go into a casino, and here I am not referring to people who go to casinos just to have fun or to waste time, I am talking about people who go in with even the smallest believe that they are going to win, these people do not know anything about math. So that is why we should teach these people about the laws of probability so they can understand math and say ‘I will never win’, because you can see them going in there saying ‘Maybe I will win today’ and that again is because they don’t understand math. And just the same, when the boy or the girl is behind the steering wheel, this time, it is not math they are not aware of, but physics of quantities, gravity and speed. And the father cannot teach these things at home, so there has to be a place dedicated for these things. Today we have advanced technologies in all areas, how do you think people learn how to be pilots? I have taken my nephews once to the special flight stimulator, it was amazing, with a cost of 30 million each, it is like a small room, not bigger than a car or a plane cabin, and in it they teach you everything related to flying an airplane, you don’t think they allow pilots to train on real airplanes before the use the stimulator do you? So, with the technology we have today, can’t we make a similar stimulator to teach car driving? Of Course we can. So my reaction is to oppose this political shift, and the tendency to say ‘We have a problem, ok let’s wait’. It is the same with unemployment, in the unemployment case, the politicians say ‘let’s keep them at school longer’ and I have always wondered why we keep kids at school until they are 18 years old. The answer is because it is more convenient for the government, so we can say that they are still students and not in the unemployment line.

Now, we have the psychological factor, the fame factor, the manhood factor, lack of physics knowledge factor, the fact that the trainer does not know how to train factor, because training is a profession, and not everyone who can drive, can train others to drive, and we also have the fact that a person who is trained to drive an automatic gear car might have to drive a manual shift, and the insufficient knowledge of oil, water and air. And of course, there are the alcohol and drugs issues. I might have told you that my mother spent 2 months in the hospital, and she was in the intensive care for 2 weeks. Intensive care means that you cannot even move. Next to her bed, was a 19 years old young man, who has been in the intensive care for more than 5 months by that time, which is a weird thing, because people only stay in the intensive care for a week or two, so why was this 19 years old in the intensive care for the last 5 month, and In a condition where he cannot move, talk, feel or anything, with half of his head in the fridge waiting to be reattached. The reason behind it all was that he was driving his motorcycle without a helmet, with drugs in his body, while it was raining and there was water in the streets, and he was speeding and he crossed a red light. Is there a bigger disaster? I have met his family, a wonderful family that has everything, so why doesn’t these young people have enough self esteem to the point they will go to drugs, and if someone thinks that he is suffering in his life, he should read the news for only one day to see how half the world is dying and being tortured, so was this kid being tortured to use drugs? And did he hate himself and needed his friends to love him so bad that he crossed the red light to impress them? Was he that busy to speed up to this level? So, the matter is the need for love, for self esteem, for self awareness, for community acknowledgment and that is why I don’t think rising the legal driving age will change anything, because the subject is bigger than this.

Host: The writer ‘Jonar Nader’ who lectures in the youth classes about seminars special for them.

Host: With that, we end the youth program ‘The Youth and The Future’